On the latest episode of the Drew Aversa Show, I interview Bay Area clinical psychologist Jaseon Outlaw, PhD.
Jaseon Outlaw is the founder of Journey of Life Psychological, Inc. in the San Francisco Bay Area.
In this episode we talk about Jaseon’s journey earning his doctorate in clinical psychology to creating a practice to bring psychological care to the African American community that has been historically underserved, and challenged by stigma.
We talk about the reality that the majority of people who seek Bay Area mental health therapy and counseling are actually high performing in most cases, so there’s no shame in asking for help to navigate the journey of life.
In our conversation we also tackle some tough subjects to address the elephants in the room. We talk about how to heal division in divisive times; the reasons why media stimulates your fear response to keep you hooked to stories that aren’t always 100% accurate; polarizing views that make everyone seem racist or out to get you; and what people can do to feel better in these uncertain times.
Most important, we recognize the stress of the pandemic and talk around getting things “back to normal” as we discuss the important role employers have in recognizing the reality that not every employee will feel comfortable coming back into traditional office environments when they’ve been working from home for over a year, and what Bay Area employers can do to be mindful of this, so they are an employer of choice.
Ready to think deeper and lead bolder with the right mindset needed to navigate this pandemic and all the challenges leaders face, listen to our conversation to gain the leadership perspective needed to thrive.
LISTEN TO THE PODCAST NOW
AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION
Note: This podcast was transcribed to make it more accessible. Since we use a transcription program we cannot guarantee that the text is 100% accurate so please refer to the audio version for the full conversation and context.
Drew Aversa: Welcome to another episode of the Drew Aversa show today. I have my guest Dr. Jason Outlaw. Dr. Outlaw, how are you?
Dr. Outlaw: Doing pretty good, Drew. I appreciate you inviting me on. I’m certainly looking forward to having a fruitful discussion about whatever it is that you have on the plate and so looking forward to it today
Drew Aversa: Hey, we’re just having a great conversation about life and start out. I always love to hear about your journey. You are a clinical psychologist in California with a practice called journey of life which I just love the name because it truly is a journey in life as you and I both shared some stories.
So yeah, I just love to turn it over to you just kind of share your journey. How did you get to? Where you are? and then for the audience, just to stay tuned. We’re going to be talking about you, know how to manage during some challenging times and, you know what to look for when you’re trying to find help and how to get help because a lot of people might be new to, you know asking for help during these times. So, I’m definitely looking forward to a great conversation today.
Dr. Outlaw: Sure, just in terms of my journey of how I got to, where I am. I’m first of all born and raised in Oakland, California so I’m a proud Oaklander and I did my education in a couple different states and so I found myself in Arizona and Louisiana and Texas and Indiana bouncing around for different reasons related to obtaining the ultimate goal but after I completed my postdoc which was at university of Houston.
I made a decision to move back to California and provide services to my community that was always my goal and I feel like I’ve achieved that now certainly I’m one of many therapists in this area but many people know who I am and about the clinic, I have also done some work with the county so I was the chair of Alameda County mental health board, also worked in the measure a committee so trying to, you know put my stamp on things and ultimately my goal and kind of my one of my goals is to reduce stigma right like mental health people get deathly afraid of even the concept of mental health they think that.
Everyone is severely mentally ill and on, you know high medication and have very little control over their behaviors and their thoughts and while that definitely does describe part of the mental health population most of it doesn’t look like that and so it’s kind of my goal is to continue to break down the walls of stigma and dispel myths and just provide information that gets people to understand kind of what it really is.
So once again to kind of answer your question as I got back to California and was studying for licensure exams and so forth, I made a decision that I was not going to work for someone else I said, you know what I’m going to try this out myself and hang a shingle as we say and open up the door and see kind of who falls in and oddly enough, Drew I got lucky.
Let me tell you why I got lucky is because prior when I first started affordable care act. I hadn’t started yet. It was a theory and certainly, you know, health care reform in this country has been a discussion for many moons and many presidents so prior to prior to affordable care act. I used to have clients who would say look I don’t have insurance? Can you accept 25 bucks? Can you accept 20 bucks? Can you be sick? Can I be seen for free? And that was like not everyone but it was probably at 40-50 percent and we had just started and so we were like: Well, it’s better to take 25 bucks than zero bucks. If we don’t take this client, we’re going to be doing nothing this hour but slowly but surely affordable care act came in and it just insured many more millions of Americans and the population that we serve began to come in with insurance and to this day I very rarely have someone who doesn’t have insurance whether it’s, you know cover California or something else and so that just created a lot of access to care right.
And I feel like even part of the discussion about stigma has a little bit to do with access to care so if you don’t have health care why would you consider seeing a therapist right? like all you’re going to do is just disappoint yourself unless you can get someone to accept a small sliding scale fee so I think but certainly stigma is real but I do feel as if the access to care piece was another part of it. So nonetheless as things kind of sprouted I was able to build the business and we see about 115/week now and we serve everywhere from San Francisco all the way to Fremont.
Drew Aversa: Wow and has your practice changed quite a bit with Covid right now as far as telehealth and how people are accessing care?
Dr. Outlaw: Sure, telehealth is our savior so if we didn’t have telehealth and just to briefly describe it for the listeners and viewers. Telehealth is basically just anything that’s not face to face and so telephone and video are the primary versions of telehealth and so we would see. I think I had one telephone client when prior to, you know, March 2020 and now I don’t see anyone in person and neither does anyone in my office. It just isn’t really worth it until, you know to expose all the different clients who would be coming into the office, the folk’s same thing with families and so we just made a decision to completely transition over to telehealth and it has, you know, it has a few cons to it but for the most part it’s not a huge shift and people are still able to be seeing we notice that clients are like wait. This is more flexible for me. I don’t have to drive 20 minutes to you do my hour and then drive another 20 minutes. They kind of lose three hours, right?
Drew Aversa: Well, yeah, Bay Area rush hour trying to get to an appointment possibly if you’re working and have an accommodation to go to therapy
Dr. Outlaw: For sure, for sure
Drew Aversa: Maybe a three to four-hour chunk of your day
Dr. Outlaw: That is very true and I can recall. A San Francisco client that I had who just had the worst time ever making it to therapy on time and I was like: Look, we’re gonna have to do something different here refer you, guy, somewhere else because you come your appointments at four o’clock and you get at 4:35 just only with so much that can be done and I hate to see you sitting in traffic. So, to answer your question once again telehealth has hugely changed the landscape and it has allowed us to continue to serve our clients
Drew Aversa:, you know, in one of the presentations, I do for first responders and even corporate on the trauma awareness and whatnot just to, you know, share my journey too is, you know, going through different traumatic injuries and things throughout my life trauma impacts so many people and life traumas, right? I mean you could in a sense. We don’t think of these things, you know, just the context like you says the way things are framed in society that you have an amazing career and then all of a sudden, it’s gone because of Covid the pandemic.
The last recession these things can be traumatic let alone our own physical traumas, you know, emotional psychological trauma different things like that so when somebody’s trying to find a therapist for the first time that can also be somewhat dramatic right? If you don’t fit, you know, it’s like I always say it’s like dating, you know in the workshops, I do to help managers become, you know, more aware on these things because sometimes you have to coach somebody in a corporate setting of hey, here’s the EAP or this is how you can get access to somebody better. If it’s not working, don’t give up right? So, what is your advice, you know, I mean some therapists offer maybe a half hour connecting, you know to get to see if there’s a fit right? I mean what should that journey look like for somebo0dy when they’re in a state, where they realize they’re not okay, they know they need help and then how do they make sure that it’s the right fit versus going to one therapist perhaps and just giving up right
I know for me I didn’t give up. I kept going but what’s your advice from actually being an entrepreneur, a practice owner, you know a business owner, a therapist, you know, how does it look in your seat for trying to find the right fit for the client? Where, you know you can give value to somebody?
Dr. Outlaw: Sure, I think you raised a really good point and my initial response is this is the same with any service provider. It can be an attorney. It can be someone who’s cutting your hair, doing your nails, any service that’s being provided. You don’t have to just stop at the first person and see that one first person that’s completely representative of the field right anytime and you and I both don’t have to get our haircuts anymore but I do recall I haven’t got my haircut since 2009. I remember it very much like it was yesterday and the liberation feels great but it feels great but I think razor blades are more expensive than the haircuts. That’s another conversation for another day.
The high quality ones at least but when we were getting haircuts, you didn’t stop at the first barber you went to and said this is, you know, the greatest thing ever you make a decision based on a couple haircuts and say: All right, well I’m gonna try somebody else so the same thing is certainly true with therapists and I like to tell all my clients and I encourage my therapist to do the same let them know like this is a trial period like, you know after two or three sessions you’re gonna get a pretty good idea of how I work. You’re gonna get an idea of if it feels as
If I can connect and understand your worldview, you’re gonna get an idea of if I feel like I’m gonna be an effective person to uh to be the engine behind the change that you’re looking for and after a couple sessions if you don’t feel that then I personally recommend that you try someone else. Sometimes, a gender match is a huge thing or sometimes an ethnicity match from client to therapist is a huge thing or sometimes, just an SES match. There’re all sorts of different aspects of our personal and social identities that are going to be important that that you take into consideration so my advice to the people listening and watching just pretty much to look at your first experiences with any therapist you choose as a trial period and don’t feel bad. You don’t feel like you’re hurting someone’s feelings if you need to try something else.
Drew Aversa: That’s great and it’s great coming from YouTube because I think people, you know, might feel bad right? There’s always that hierarchy in a sense where we see I think in American society where, you know the NBA might know more than this person or the PhD, you know is more than the MFT or that and I think that’s great coming from. You don’t feel bad about hurting that person’s feeling if it’s not the right thing.
Dr. Outlaw: Yeah, it’s about you and the reason why you’re there and I’ll say this on record too is that there are licensed master’s level clinicians who are way better than some PhD clinicians just because you got the PhD doesn’t mean that you’re a great. Uh, a great provider and I can just remember some of my professors were really good at teaching and they were really good at research but seeing them as a therapist they sucked right?
So, you got to figure out kind of what your niche is in terms of what you’re going to do now. Luckily that a doctorate degree in psych is a little bit robust. You can teach. You can write books. You can do the therapy thing. You can do lots of things and so you’re not limited to one area but certainly, I would encourage everyone to not see just a degree as like the method of determining who’s going to be good for you or not right.
Drew Aversa: No, that’s great and then one thing, you know in the in the world of therapy too. There are different therapies now. Today too like somatic experiencing EMDR, you know, can you touch a little bit on that too or if somebody, you know, has trauma in different aspects? Why one may be better than the other right because I mean we’re human. We’re not a one-size-fits-all approach through that journey of life. I had different from stages of counseling there. Maybe, you know different needs or different modalities that are or better than the other.
Dr. Outlaw: Yeah, yeah and I’ll say this first. One of the common factors that makes therapy work. It’s really the relationship that you have with your therapist. Is this a trusting relationship? Is this someone who you can be vulnerable with? Is this someone who is genuine and transparent with you as a therapist as well. If the therapist can fulfill those prerequisites, you’re doing pretty good and then from there, the interventions are kind of icing on the cake and I’m not saying that interventions don’t have any place in terms of outcome but you can be the best interventionist in the world and not establish any trust and rapport and that’s out the door, right?
So, you need to have that piece first but in reference to trauma work I mean there’s a lot of different types of treatments out there, even just the exposure version can be very helpful. Some people need medication, some people need EMDR and there are lots of other treatments that are out there. That are helpful as well and so for the average consumer, they don’t necessarily know what do I need? What’s going to be helpful for me?
I do think just a peripheral sort of uh internet search and understanding what each of the treatments are like and you making a decision like: Ok, I think that really fits for me, for some people EMDR is like hokey. It’s almost like, you know waving the stopwatch and doing the hypnosis that way and hypnosis is actually the real thing too. It doesn’t look like what the movie show.
Drew Aversa: I did it, actually worked well for sure for me it’s amazing, some of these things
Dr. Outlaw: Yeah, but what works for you may not work for someone else.
Drew Aversa: Absolutely
Dr. Outlaw: It’s just very important that we all know ourselves and know what may feel like: All right that’s something that I think aligns with. Uh what I think is going to be helpful so I feel like I’m rambling a bit hopefully that answers your question.
Dr. Outlaw: No that’s great and then something, you know nowadays Oakland is an amazing community. It’s very diverse obviously we’re seeing, you know gentrification. Now we’re seeing you and I talked about the challenges, you know with foreign investors coming in buying up, you know properties with all cash offers displacing hard-working locals so there’s a lot of pain, right now. In different areas of life, you know in a sense of, you know I can’t afford to live in a place that I have called home my whole life right or, you know I’m uncertain if I can even buy a home or have the American dream and I’m working the grind of the American, you know capitalism work ethic that you and I talked about where other countries actually work less than us,, you know so how can people manage all of these different inputs of stress of worry of uncertainty of, you know not feeling like there might be light at the end of the tunnel because I think with the media cycle, you know we see on the news, you know it’s constantly negative.
It’s not very promising and even when there is something good it seems like the next day the news comes on and slashes out all the good and, you know now there’s a new variant of Covid, you know one day after the vaccine it’s like the news just can’t rest right, you know I mean.
So, people are in this this fear cycle what’s your advice for people to get through this next year, you know in a healthy way, in a happy way, in a way that is, you know uplifting to them.
Dr. Outlaw: Sure, well the first thing is, you know reference to the news and what’s put on TV this kind of is an extension of the pre-conversation. We had about capitalism so news stations and their ratings are based on how many people are watching and the honest reality is that the more you can keep people stuck to a TV the better ratings they have and the more they can ask for commercials and so forth and so guess what does one of the best in terms of keeping people glued to a TV fear right?
So, if you’re fearful of something, oh my God, I don’t know how I can catch code if it’s getting better or so forth and so on, you know fear sparks this need for more information right so you will be more glued to the TV, you know I’m generalizing of course can you say that one more time because that’s a powerful. That’s a powerful point for people to yeah just the whole concept of TV and news stations and the different stations that we watch. They want to have better ratings, right? So, they want to have more people watching and so how do you achieve that?
One of the best ways to achieve that is to spark fear so by sparking fear it creates this feeling of I need to know all the information that I can so that I feel more equipped and more prepared right and so it’s just, you know I’m quite sure there was an organizational psychologist at some point that, you know consulted with the news station and said this is what you need to do so it is a little, you know immoral I guess if you really want to put it that way.
But we have to all be aware of for one if you’re going to be sitting in front of the TV all day you need to know what what’s happening here you have no idea that part of what they’re doing is trying to spark fear in you then you can fall victim to thinking that this is completely representative of all that’s out there and here’s kind of how, you know that. That’s the case so during periods where Covid is really bad, you know it’s front-page news and it’s every, you know the top of the news stations uh articles and so forth but when it does better you don’t hear anything about it, you know, you’re about coping as much you may hear a little snippet here and there but it’s in the middle of the show. It’s not like, you know front-page news at that point so, you know because comfort doesn’t create ratings, right? Any sort of positive, sort of notion.
Oh, I feel really comfortable in my city and things are going well around here well I’m going to turn to Netflix and watch a movie now so, you know we are certainly being their psychology and organizational sort of development stuff being used to keep us stuck to the TV let me answer your question because what you said is or what you ask is what can we do to stay sane during this period of time so we’re coming up on year number two or in other words we’ve been in Covid for a year what I’ve been advising people and especially since we are and coming up on, you know a year anniversary you can’t wait until you feel as if Covid ends to do the things that make you happy. If you are putting yourself on pause and you’re waiting all right when Covid is over and done with I’m gonna, you know go out and do X or Y whatever hobbies that I have and so forth I’m not suggesting like go out and just be unsafe but you have to do some form of what makes you happy with the understanding that this isn’t the epitome of that let’s say you like to play basketball right you’re in a basket REC league and everything else probably not safe to go out and play contact sport with people but does that mean that you can’t go out and shoot a basketball with you and your friend. No, you can definitely do that. Does that mean that you can’t, you know in your backyard work on your dribbling so my whole point is that it’s not going to represent, you know the epitome of what was fun for you with that respect but if you are waiting until this thing is completely over it’s going to make this period even more tough for you so I’m strongly encouraging people to not wait to figure out kind of what it is. That ticks makes them tick and do that the other piece.
That’s really important is you got to be creative right and so I’m speaking to people who are still staying safe and they’re at home, you know you go out and you do your grocery thing and maybe you get some exercise but you’re still spending more hours in the house with family so get really creative and I’ve recommended, you know I’m picturing in my mind like the two-parent household with a couple kids right you got some young kids and they’re like pulling their hair out because they’re bored out of their mind. How about doing a treasure hunt at home and how about doing a cooking contest where you involve the kids and ask the kids what’s your favorite meal what do you want to cook.
